I was more than willing to believe Peter Oborne when he described the lies Boris Johnson told.
I have tried hard not to think Starmer as bad, but after this week and Starmer's bare-faced U-turn on his position on blockading Gaza it is hard to maintain that view. Oborne is damning about him.
I am not sure I agree with all he says, but he is worth listening to:
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Blair lying about Iraq. It is difficult to say. He made a case about WMD which in the end turned out not to be true.
If he knew before it was not true , then he lied. If he did think there were weapons or a good chance of them existing, then he did not lie , even though his judgement was wrong.
His American ally with their enormous investment in intelligence operations, told him there were WMD. It would have need courage and an reliable alternative source of information, to have gone against that.
The best account I have read, is ‘To start a War” by Robert Draper. Using interviews and recently released documents, he builds a case that Cheney and Rumsfeld manipulated the information reaching Bush, who was not a very intelligent man. He did not assemble all the principle people together and work out an agreed assessment and strategy as happened with Clinton and Obama., and in Second World War. As Robin Cook said in his resignation speech, Gore would probably not have made a decision for war. Bush , undoubtedly, believed the WMD existed and it was his duty to stop them.
To me Blair was as much about style as substance. As a counsellor listening to people talk about their work, this seems all too prevalent in modern management. ( I admit my bias )
Truth is important which is why I comment here. Oborne is a man of integrity and. like you Richard, I may not agree with all but he is worth listening to.
Dealing with B.Liar & Iraq. He is one, or a combo of, stupid, credulous, gullible. As of 2003, Iraq had experienced +/-12 years of sanctions – which as one TV prog noted – killed during that time hundreds of thousands of children. It never occured to B.Liar to wonder: how did Iraq in that time have the resources to make its WMD and (important) the delivery systems to, e.g. hit the UK? The UK-USA “relationship” is that of a child & a groomer. Sadly B.Liar is functionally incapable of seeing that & in turn, was incapable of turning on common sense & saying – “hang on a sec”, either to the USA or to his own security apparat.
As for Oborne, he seems to have been on the road to Damascus and had his own opening of eyes moment. One wonders why it took so long. That said, the clips of Kid Starver lying through his teeth, should be collected by the LibDems and the Greens and turned into attack ads of the most viscious kind. Staver, like all the Tories, is a congenital liar, a place man, a manchurian candidate (whose? is another question). He is not a socialist even in the mould of Atlee (keep in mind Atlee used the Russo-Finnish Winter war to turf out plenty of party members that were “left wing/whinge” Moscow sympathisers) . Staver, Mandelson et al are Tory2 – as was B.Liar (& Broon). Oborne seems to be absent from what passes for the UK mainstream meeja – perhaps for obvious reasons – given his message is deeply jarring and upsets what passes for the on-going “political applecart”. And we can’t have that, can we?
Oborne/DDNews are correct enough to be taken VERY seriously by anyone living through the current UK shambles…
He will just say that ‘when things change – we have to change our response’.
If Labour were even prepared to engage with ideas – about what is or is not possible – would be a glimmer of hope, but as they seem to be getting away with their current ‘we’ll solve all your problems with NHS, schools, – without any change in the current Tory tax and spend – they will continue with the lies.
It’s clear he said whatever it took to get elected party leader, and is now doing the same to get Labour elected. The manifesto is likely to be a very disappointing wishy-washy rearranging the deckchairs sort of affair as a result. I’m under no illusions that he will suddenly reveal himself to be someone who particularly cares about inequality, democracy or climate change once he holds the reins of power. But if he finds it expedient to, say, renationalise the water industry, might he just do it, trotting out the ‘things change’ line again?
I fear that what Oborne says is right. How very very depressing. I have lost all hope.
What is Oborne likely to achieve, broadcasting these terrible truths? 5 more years of fascist Tory government? Should we be hoping for a split government with LibDem and Greens forcing some moral rectitude into governance – or does that not really exist in our population?
Why is it that Parliament has no say in what is done anymore? Can Sunak really sell off HS2 land, at a massive loss, for his own political ends, without discussion?
I think I would be suicidal if I were not so old that it hardly matters.
Remember what Tony Benn said: ““There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle. To be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up.” It’s demoralising to see the state of political affairs, but if we don’t at least try to raise awareness, things could get even worse – let’s keep hoping for better!
Quote – What is Oborne likely to achieve, broadcasting these terrible truths?
For Scotland, perhaps, opening the eyes of the electorate and onto the only rational alternative to the corrupt cesspit in Westminster.
I have to admit, I see very little to disagree with in what Oborne says. If Blair believed the WMD lies, then he was stupid. Blair is many things but I never thought stupid was one of them.
What was embarrassing about Blair was how – like so many places the Americans have been through the ages – he was won over by their presentational style?
Blair was like a kid during WWII – won over by the opulence, smart uniforms (Bush gave him a free jacket did he not?), chewing gum and bottomless pockets of his American friends – just like a lot of British politicians still are who yearn for the glamour American style economy and politics without understanding its geographical origins (it’s a bigger country for a start).
Blair’s biggest crime? Not so much in terms of the actual Iraq invasion – Ian Stevenson is right – he was lied to – we were ALL lied to. His biggest crime was to make legitimate targets of the citizens he had under his protection. He failed to see the new-geo-politics of the internet era which can bring war to a tube train, bus, shopping mall, holiday or your street and door step.
I mean, there is Blair with his police protection squad and all that and where’s ours? It’s usually after the fact.
Sunak did exactly the same going over to Israel and saying that ‘we stand with Israel’ after the disgusting HAMAS attack. Rather than giving Israel his support in the name of humanity, his support sounded nationalistic and roped us all in (Jew, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Sikh alike – whatever) whether we believe that to be true or not, making us all legitimate targets in our own country even of each other. Major fail – right?
When will our numpty politicians catch on to this? They’re not very grown up. But this about looking like a world leader when we’ve known from Blair’s day that our politicians are increasingly not interested in us – the people in their care.
And will Stymied be any different? I don’t think so. Oborne’s slightly too warm reflection on what the Labour party was is something he can be welcome to given that he has been on the winning Tory side so often (if it were that nice, why did Labour keep losing?). The Labour party has changed because of Oborne’s cynical Tory Party, so his concern and contempt for Labour is I hope aimed at his own party. He cannot blame Labour for playing the same games when Oborne’s hinterland has constantly called Labour everything from socialist, communist to ‘the enemy within’. It is the inherent use of fascist political science in the Tory party that Oborne overlooks too often. He should talk to Lynton Crosby a bit more.
As for Stymied the big hope is that he will be different when actually in power. And that is the only big hope given how much he has renounced. His war on the Left though is a huge error. It points to a party that like the Tories is actually not united. This means that party issues may come before national issues – again, as the BREXIT mob disrupted the Tories. And it means a mono-culture driving policy and our future (not an especially good one)
And that mono-culture is fueled by wealth. So the worst thing for me about Stymied is that he has made what seems to be a deal with the Devil. And the Devil will be watching, making sure he gets what he’s paid for with menaces.
Oh well……………..that’s that then.
“I mean, there is Blair with his police protection squad and all that and where’s ours?”
In the context of Uk serfs (= you, me everybody on this blog) we are, in the view of UK plods “the enemy”.
I’m not making an assertion – there is no shortage of reports on police attitudes towards UK serfs.
Thus UK serfs have an “anti-protection squad”.
For example, are you carrying a table leg in a bag? You become a “legitimate target”.
Skin pantone differing from “whiteish” – you are a possible suspect & potentially a “legitimate target” & so on and so forth.
Kid Starver is the aceptable face (for the plods et al) of Tory2 & will continue Tory1 policies.
Demonstrations? only of the most anodyne sort. Strikes? Nope. Starvber is quoted on the vid as being opposed to both.
Further intrusions into civil society by the UK’s security apparat? – a betting certainty – particularly if strikes start to have an impact.
In my view, given the current trajectory (economic, social, political) the UK is finished. What is left to discuss is the nature of that end.
And we are all being denied our right to protest any longer through the Police Bill. Starmer should have come out against that immediately but it is going to serve him well.
As long ago as 2010, when the big demo took place in London, those at the start were being funnelled through a narrow ‘start’ so police could film them and get identification of every single person marching.
We are losing our rights at a rate of knots.
Just in case people think I was somehow exaggerating:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/20/family-of-black-boy-rammed-by-met-police-car-win-fight-for-iopc-inquiry
wrong pantone colour? have water pistol? standby for a visit by armed plods.
Pathetic is not even the half of it. Ditto the utter failure of the pathetic IOPC to investigate.
Plods main enemy? – UK serfs.
I think there’s a horrible prospect of people expecting there to be a difference when Starmer is actually in power and being horrified that not only will he be worse (as Oborne’s case suggests) as he cosies up to the 1% and the media baron(s), and importantly THAT THERE IS NO ONE else on the horizon who might provide a alternative.
And Starmer and his cronies have made sure the rules of election of the Labour Party leadership have been changed so no one can ever be elected if they take a different view, as Corbyn was.
One sense in which he will be worse than the Tories, is that he will be responsible for extinguishing hope for a better world. Many long for the end of the Tory misrule, but under them there was never any hope for anyone, other than the already rich – and we all knew it. Now there is finally a chance for a change of government and a change of direction, but those hoping for relief – for something to give them hope – seem likely to be very disappointed. And what then?
Starmer may well find it’s not so easy – already this week six Labour councillors have resigned from Oxford City Council, losing the council its Labour majority. This time it’s Starmer’s stance on Gaza but I see a growing discontent with Starmer’s Labour and how intolerant they are of anyone who does not accept their right wing approach to policy.
They were outed about their manipulation of how the party conference should debate the NHS, ensuring that democratic motions put forward from around the country about reversing privatisation were silenced in favour of a ‘NHS Fit for the Future’ non-debate.
Many of those who were motivated by the prospect of a return to democratic socialism in Labour have said they will not vote for him in a general election.
Not a lot to disagree with! What a sad state we’ve gotten into.
I did not know about this man. I looked him up.
Bxexiteer !!
Daily Telegraph!!!
Daily Mail !!!!!!
Nuf said!
As I said, I do not agree with all he says.
But his drive for integrity is impressive.
politics as the art of the possible
the media already starting to put the boot in
we have to be careful for what we wish for
but
we dont want to do the Tories work for them
Some people’s sense of integrity forbids them voting for a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
Most of the video I’ve listened to seem to bereferring to Starmer’s chane of position on policy issues at different points 8n time. Don’t think that’s the same as lying about your own behaviour of which Johnson is/ was guilty.
Definitely different but I’m still musing over which is worse.
Johnson made it absolutely clear exactly what he was. Worryingly the voting public didn’t seem to mind.
Starmer tries to cover up what he is and the voting public are so desperate for change that they might not mind.