What now for Labour?
Let's face the reality that for the third time in seven years the Tories have won an election if seats and the popular vote is to be taken into account. But, and this is a big but, it also lost its majority, so Labour did extraordinarily well and now we face a hung parliament.
What that means is that the next election campaign has already begun. It cannot be otherwise.
So what must Labour do? My answer is that has to improve its game again. It has done astonishingly well. But it has to do even better. It simply has no choice. It has a majority to win now. And that improvement must start straightaway, and happen continuously in that case.
That means Labour has to get its act together after the election. Jeremy Corby has done so during the election campaign. But now it has to do so day in, day out. The fact is that it sometimes failed to do that over the last two years. It cannot repeat that mistake.
So Labour must unite. It is a left of centre party now. That debate has to be over.
And if it is the case then the in-fighting (and there has been a lot of it) has to end. In particular the party machine, which has fought Jeremy Corbyn from the day he won, has to stop doing so, starting today.
The result must be that Labour starts speaking with a single voice. This is essential if Labour is to get its message out. So if Labour wants to get a better presence in the mainstream media than it has to deliver the stories, and on time. It is the in-fighting that has prevented that.
And it has, of course, to agree on policy, although it's clear it is on its way to doing that.
I hope all these things are now possible. Surely that's not too much to hope?
But the big issue is greater than any of those demands. As quickly as possible Labour has to get its economic messaging right. You can talk about equality and its merits forever but if people don't believe we can afford social justice and that it will really pay for them the Tories will still block a Labour government. And so far it is clear that not enough people are persuaded of this.
That is because of the profound misunderstanding of economics that has been deliberately fostered by right wing economists and think tanks. This suggests that the economy is a household and that it must live within its monetary means, which it is deliberately suggested are finite.
Both these suggestions are lies, of course. The economy is not at all like a household, of course, precisely because a household has a distinct income and expenditure, but in the economy as whole one person's spend is another person's income. This transforms the way we have to get people to think because in this case cutting spend simply cuts someone else's income and negates any benefit as a result. What is more, there is no limit to the amount of money there can be in the economy: the state has the unique right to make it from scratch.
So the biggest challenge for Labour is to persuade the world that this is really the case. What the left has to do is teach the world to sing a new economic song. And we haven't got long to do it. But that's the challenge now. And it's vital.
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Totally agree that that debate must be had and one. Next tho is PR and the need for an economics in step with the environment. CO2 levels are running out of control (409.6 ppm) and the accumulation of heat in the atmosphere seemingly unstoppable. Reversing that has to be the ultimate goal and with Greens making a positive contribution in Parliament is going to be the only way.
Give us the words to the song and many will sing along.
(Please please contact green Bristol West candidate Molly Scott Cato because she should be there crafting that chancellor speech in The Joy of Tax alongside you.)
”So Labour must unite. It is a left of centre party now. That debate has to be over.” Agreed! The task is to ensure that this marks both the rebirth of Labour as a radical voice for working people and a welcome farewell to a cross-party parliamentary neoliberal consensus.
The night belongs where it should belong, with the young people, with the neglected part of the electorate that felt disinfranchised and ignored by main stream politicians, and who will be the inheritors of the decisions we take in the coming months. And well done to Jeremy for galvanising this vote, and in your no-small way, your contribution Richard to the widening debate on reality economics. There is renewed hope, and hard work ahead, but dare we hope there is a bright light at the end of the tunnel.
Totally agree Richard with everything you say. A great result but no time for complacency. The Tories and the media continue to spout the ‘how’s he going to pay for it’ and ‘black-hole’ mantras, so if the LP is going to expand its electoral appeal to get a sustainable majority it’s going to have to ‘come clean’ on the economy. The next stage is absolutely critical, otherwise they’ll constantly be under attack for econmic incompetence. It’s going to be a big challenge but, at least they’ve been given an unexpectd opportunity. I still don’t rate Corbyn as a natural leader. And John McDonnell is a weak spokesperson.
Bloody well said!
I am sick and tired of apparently well educated//highly qualified people arguing that what you (among others!) say is nonsense. The task for Labour now has to be to get that very simple message out there and to ‘educate’ those highly qualified…and the less highly qualified who have been spoon fed that household budget/magic money tree nonsense.
One idea might be that so called Brains Trust of the likes of Krugman and Blanchflower (whatever happened to that?!) to explain to voters how things work, and how they’ve been deliberately misled since the 1970’s. The mission HAS to be to respond robustly to/remove forever that eternal empty-headed ‘How are you going to afford it?’ which, in his appalling arrogance, John Redwood was still trotting out this morning.
I’m guessing that I’m not alone in hoping that Jeremy might be picking up the phone and inviting you to help.
I would help
I stress I am not asking for anything though
And nor do I expect any such call
Please would you contact Labour party HQ and offer to help?
I’ve been out canvassing everyday​ for the last month and the two biggest reasons potential labour voters give for not voting labour are:
1) Jeremy Corbyn’s supposed weakness and lack of patriotism.
2) the question “how are Labour going to pay for the stuff in the manifesto?”
I can convince most on point 1 but try as I might (using MMT stuff, telling them to read this blog etc etc) I cannot convince people to abandon austerity. It seems to be very deeply lodged in peoples’ minds
We absolutely must hear qualified people like yourself continuously and vociferously condemning austerity.
Please don’t take no for an answer!
Time and again the left (some of them very familiar names) have said I have more influence here than I could ever do in Labour
And if they do call I might well never say
But I am working on that message
Richard, apologies, I don’t precisely know why you deleted my post but I can guess. You probably don’t want a bunch of people whining at you to help Corbyn and McDonnell when you’ve already tried and found it impossible.
Fine, I get that, particularly after reading the addendum to your policy on comments secton, which I had not read till now. Again, apologies but I’ve only discovered your blog in the last few months so I was not fully aware of your difficulties working with the labour leadership.
Now I know I’m somewhat concerned. I have been supporting the Labour party in the hope they could actually fix things. If they don’t and won’t understand the reality of the monetary system I feel a bit disillusioned. It is like I’m back to choosing the least bad of two options again.
As a rank and file Labour party member what can I do? I talk to people in my CLP about MMT, I point them to your blog, we’ve used some information from your blog in our campaign.
We can only do so much at a grass roots level, particulately when it is onot a few of us and not the whole constituency party. OK you don’t think the Labour leadership will seek or listen to your advice but would you be prepared to talk to Labour party members at a constituency level? You could convince them better than I and then we, as a constituency party, could put pressure on Labour HQ.
Adam
I didn’t delete it: I scanned it and thought it needed a different reply at another time and so it was still awaiting moderation. Apologies
I did have real problems getting Labour to hear sense: I assure you my problem was that they were just not being left wing enough, and not economically credible enough
I sincerely hope it is now time to face down the likes of Chris Leslie and his illiterate nonsense and that this can now happen
It needs to
Richard
Ha ha! Oops, for some reason my “comment is awaiting moderation” placeholder thingy disappeared (maybe I originally posted on my phone not my tablet) so I thought I’d caused offence! Who knows, maybe I still will when you read it! Certainly you’ll be a bit miffed at having to wade through 3 of my comments. Sorry.
Scrap both posts and go with this if you prefer:
Given your previous difficulties getting through to tge Labour Party leadership how would you advise Labour party members at a constituency level to spread the MMT view? Would you ever have time to do a presentation/training for Constituency Labour Parties?
I’ve been talking about MMT and referring people to your blog but they’d be much more likely to be convinced by someone with real expertise.
Three now…
And I am afraid I rarely have time to do constituency visits now
I really do have to do the day job
Social media is my outreach
I saw Alistair Campbell and Paul Mason at around 05:15 when I got up for work.
Both said that the labour centre had to be brought back into Corbyn’s Labour.
I couldn’t believe what I was hearing.
The Labour centre is the home of the economic crap you rightly expose above. And yes – John McDonnell has these tendencies too (although his redistributive instincts are a far cry from Blair).
If the ‘labour centre’ is to come back, then it should do so cowed and willing to unlearn the rubbish it has inducted over the years in chasing Tory swing voters.
Labour has to keep getting over the ‘magic money tree’ argument and say it together. And with no smirking from the PLP like they did with the manifesto.
The biggest threats from within Labour now is Corbyn losing his composure and the PLP making hay out of the fact that there was no outright win.
I think Labout should try to include as many as possible in the tent, but not their ideas
Remember, my argument with Labour in 2015/16 was that it was not nearly left wing enough
Now is the time for courage
There is no time for the failed thinking of Cooper / Balls
Fine by me.
“the rubbish it has inducted over the years in chasing Tory swing voters”
You have hit the nail on the head there, Pilgrim.
The UK has an electorate with low voter turnouts. The idea of chasing centrist swing voters has always been a stupid, self-defeating strategy that corrodes the party’s identity and leaves the voter with a non-choice between 2 very similar parties. That non-choice then encourages even lower turnouts.
Corbyn’s campaign and the greater youth turnout shows that the real potential lies in inspiring those who do not normally vote rather than converting those who do.
Chris Leslie has already done exactly that. I wonder where he thinks his extra 10,000 votes came from if not from backing for the Corbyn manifesto.
The “Magic Money Tree” (MMT) is really shaky ground for the Tories.
At the height of the recession in 2009 the then Labour government stretch out to the MMT for £200 billion to help support the economy and to stop it turning into a depression. It worked and we had growth in the economy by the time the Tories took over in 2010.
But the Tories went for austerity and due to their economic mismanagement after being elected in May 2010, some 17 months later, between Oct 2011 and July 2012, a time we were not in recession although GDP growth had fallen, they themselves went and printed £175 billion to help finance the deficit.
Last year after Brexit the Tories plucked another £60 billion from the MMT, to help with the bills.
It was all done under the auspicious of Quantitative Easing and the way it was implemented did suppress bond yields, but it also allowed the central bank to print money and deliver the cash to the government via the bond markets – Magic Money Tree par excellence
The transmission mechanism was as followed:
Step 1 – BoE creates 1 billion of central bank reserves (out of thin air)
Step 2 – BoE buys £1 billion of Gov bonds from pension/insurance companies
Step 3 – pension/insurance companies buys £1 billion of new issue of Gov Bonds
Step 4 – Gov spends that £1 billion into the economy (NHS, Wewlfare etc…)
Start of the day. BoE 0, Pension £1 billion, Gov 0
End of the day. BoE -£1 billion (new money out of thin air), Pension £1 billion, Gov +£1 billion
The numbers to back it up – all you need to do is look at how much of the National Debt the Bank of England (Asset Purchase Facility) held before and after the printing spree. Before – £198 billion (Q2 2011) – after £386 billion (Q3 2012) – bond quoted at Market value hence doesn’t exactly equal an increase of £175 billion.
http://www.dmo.gov.uk/documentview.aspx?docname=publications/quarterly/jul-sep11.pdf&page=Quarterly_Review
Distribution of gilt holdings at 30 June 2011 – Bank of England (Asset Purchase Facility) £198 billion (Q2 2011)
http://www.dmo.gov.uk/documentview.aspx?docname=publications/quarterly/oct-dec12.pdf&page=Quarterly_Review
Distribution of gilt holdings at 28 September 2012 – Bank of England (Asset Purchase Facility) £386 billion (Q3 2012)
Totally agree on that Richard please keep on doing your excellent work and providing information we can share to counter the right wing tabloids.
To a certain extent I’ve got what I wanted a minority Tory government as I want the Tories to own Brexit. Personally I think the wipeout of UKIP and, it appears, quite a few ‘kippers returned to Labour rather than the assumption they’d all go to Conservatives means if Brexit is going to happen it’ll have to be a softly softly Brexit.
I think it also exposed the fact we’ve always had a weak hand and May was trying for a Royal Flush that was never there.
Still. In an ideal world a Labour win and no Brexit….?
I’m more than happy with this result too, as it would have been extremely difficult for Labour to govern now, unless it had a large majority. Now Labour has the chance to become a better managed party, a more effective opposition, and to prepare for the next election and for government. I am very happy today, especially now that my lovely Gower is back in Labour hands. Interesting times ahead.
There was always that section of Leave voters who believed in the £350m for the NHS type arguments and who have found out they were sold a bunch of lies. Hopefully (?) well sadly really, a bit more of bad economic news might shift some more by the tie of the next election.
Bizarre that NI voted so heavily for the DUP – how very unfortunate.
At least the DUP are a strong party of the Union, unlike some in the Labour Party. Labour really needs to get back to its roots, and can I add, have no truck with Nationalists of any kind, and fight for its vision for a better UK for all its citizens, don’t get conned into doing deals with these Nats, because it will all end in tears.
Oh dear….
Maybe you need to learn a little about roots
This is certainly Labour’s duty and cause, but not only on Labour’s behalf but on behalf of us all.
For in seeking to persuade and teach the UK electorate the reality of taxation, money and sectoral balances, Labour can work to administer the antidote to the poison of neo-liberal Thatcherite Reaganomics in the place where the infection first took hold, the UK, before it spread globally, enveloping the world in the “Alice in Wonderland” nonsense of “trickle down” and “expansionary contraction”, which brought with it real suffering for the majority of the population upon which it was brutally imposed.
Neo-liberalism has proved to be a sort of Ebola virus in the world economy – lethal and hard to deal with, especially when those pedddlung its nostrums were effectively portraying it in social Darwinian terms as as a vital corrective to alleged welfare dependency!
Two final points: first the “Richard” from “the Nasty Party”, who in another post gleefully (misguidedly) looked forward to exit polls predicting a 100 seat majority for “Mrs Mayhem” must surely have choked on his cornflakes this morning. He should recall that “Pride ever goeth before a fall”.
Secondly, I think I can say I won my £10 bet that Corbyn would rob May of her majority. Such a pity Labour didn’t manage to get a further 15 seats, so as to block the way to Mrs Mayhem’s “coalition of chaos” = Tories propped up by DUP backwoodsmen, since together they will have a 2 seat majority of 328. What a prospect! Not only “dumb and dumber”, but “Right and further Right”.
Andrew
That Richard very definitely has some pride to swallow
Was I the counter party to that bet? I am not sure
But I’d happily pay
No, Richard, you weren’t the counterparty to that bet, which was with rge former Chair of my Branch Labour Party, and who should be treating me to a beer sometime today – quite sufficient reward for a result I find so pleasing.
What you did say was you’d give a £10.00 donation to charity. I wouldn’t want to presume, but I think I would give £10.00 either to Greenpeace or Friends of the Earth, given the importance of green imperatives, or to the Electoral Reform Society, given the importance of electoral reform, and the need for PR.
But you decide: whatever you go for, I’m sure it will be a valid cause.
I thought I had said something like that
Greenpeace it is
Socialism ain’t what it used to be. Economics has moved on since the time of Karl Marx. We cannot think of economics in purely in terms of the nation or an empire. We still need a fairer distribution of wealth, we need to stop the rich milking the economy (private sector taxation), we need a better distribution of the benefits of industry (more rewards in wages, less in profits) and we need to stop the wealthy making profit out of public services. Will that do as a shopping list?
AN incomplete start yes
Right on all counts, Richard. a proper understanding of how a national economy works is, as you say, crucial – a mountain that can only be eroded in bite-sized chunks (mixed metaphors – sorry). But I think the idea that one person’s spend is another person’s income shouldn’t be beyond most of us. So all of us have to say it wherever possible, don’t we?
Yes Richard you are absolutely correct.
NOW there is the opportunity to transform how most people (especially politicians) believe economies work( i.e. similar to their own individual households/firms).
A good starting point might be the Labour Party itself. Perhaps, say, a two-day course for MPs so that there is a common understanding/model of how economies really work. It’s not difficult is it? I’m sure you could design such a course which would be so transformative & beneficial – expenditure/income, real resources, money creation etc.
‘Both these suggestions are lies, of course.” — Another lie is that taxing is theft. This overlooks the fact that money has value only by voluntary agreement of all of the society. Taxes are better viewed as the fees that one has to pay in order to take part. Like a club fee. And taxes are a very generous form of fee, as one only has to pay it only as a percentage of income. — Maybe you make a similar argument in Joy of Tax … it is on my reading list.
I do
I hope you enjoy it
I think the ‘magic money tree’ meme backfired for the Tories big style-it was perceived as condescending and has probably raised some questions in peoples’ minds about it’s truth.
Labour has to build on this questioning of myths. The re-education of what is possible has begun but there is a danger that Labour will not come together strongly enough to do this -the ‘momentum’ must not be lost and now IS the time to introduce ideas about money that might have been too risky during the election. The fallacy of composition needs to be be brought out and clearly explained. I think, now people will be receptive to it especially as the gutter press has been humiliated and must NOT ever again be allowed to establish its hegemony and ability to manufacture consent.
I am personally lit up by what has happened-something I have waited for for 40 years nearly. BUT it could be fragile, neo-liberalism will not give up and the bastard will reassert itself, there is a long way to go! I was shocked that people like Balls, Watson and Stephen Kinnock did not. as far as I am aware, have the grace to acknowledge the great achievement of Corbyn in the face of every perceivable obstacle -those 170 M.P’s will have to sharpen up and pronto!
Let’s celebrate this but be ever watchful as neo-liberalism comes out of every manhole cover and beneath every floor board it lurks. Years of mental wallpaper will not loosen quickly.
And worth noting how the country is divided between old and young-Labour need to work on this, the old need to see that there is more to life than managing assets and that the wealth of the whole (the common-wealth) is the vital thing.
You are right about the fragility
Neoliberalism will bite back
And Labour needs to make sure that if doesn’t do alienation right now
Labour needs to make friends now.
It does not need to come over a triumphant as it has won the argument perhaps but not the election.
I am still worried by their tribalism.
“I was shocked that people like Balls, Watson and Stephen Kinnock did not. as far as I am aware, have the grace to acknowledge the great achievement of Corbyn in the face of every perceivable obstacle -those 170 M.P’s will have to sharpen up and pronto!”
Er….um….remind me – the great achievement of Mr Corbyn seems to be to have lost this election, not won it. As far as I can see, there will still be a Tory government. It could be argued by Balls, Watson, and Stephen Kinnock and those 170 MPs who will have to “sharpen up” (a) that Labour (a) did as well as they did in spite of Corbyn rather than because of Corbyn, and (b) that under a more competent leader, Labour might actually have won this election. The Corbyn brand has failed to attract the customers up in Scotland and in the traditional heartlands in the North and S Wales. Mrs May oiffered an open goal to Labour, but Labour missed. Yes, Mr Corbyn got the young vote in the South, but just look at the swing TO the Tories in the North East for example, and the snaffling of SNP seats by the Tories north of the border where the independence bandwagon has lost its wheels but the alternative cart is being towed by Davidson.
For heaven’s sake, stop talking crap
Mike,
“Jonathan Pie” wonderfully summed this election up by saying words to the effect that “This is the election that May won – but lost, and which Corbyn lost – but won”
Removing your head from your backside would improve your clarity of vision manyfold.
Mike
Yes, obviously, in an ideal world, Labour could’ve done better. The idea it could’ve done better under, say, Owen Smith or, God Forbid, David Miliband is absurd.
OTOH JC mobilised the vote to an astonishing degree & made fools of all the people like Mandelson who gloomily predicted that the election would be decided in the centre. He recognised, as the Pollsters & Blairites alike couldn’t, that there is no law that says only 60% of the electorate can vote!
OTOH, yes JC carries baggage that makes him unelectable to a lot of working-class people. His pacifism, obvious distaste for Royalty, history of contacts with extremist groups & support for unilateral disarmament all ‘chime’ with them in precisely the wrong way.
I don’t think there is anything he can do about these things. Firstly, to his credit, he wouldn’t & secondly, were he to change he would destroy his main electoral asset which is his integrity. (He could, though, without in any way damaging his integrity, ask Chuka Umunna the name of his tailor).
There probably is a case that JC has taken the labour Pary as far as he can & it will need a new leader to carry it over the final hurdle, but he’s given the party its pride back & I can only applaud him for that.
Let’s hope all the BACK STABBERS now shut up. Get on with the task in hand. Well done Corbyn. First they laugh at you, then they smear you, then you win. Well done and to all the nay Sayers, where do you think we could be today? No10. You are a disgrace to the party.
All that energy spent on undermining him. Shut up now enough!
We’ll shut up when Mr Corbyn wins back Scotland.
Sticking to your guns like that has never looked more ludicrous, Mike. Teresa May and her election have inadvertently done us a favour by exposing your lot and sparing us from several more years of the same tired BS.
Oh dear, you illustrate perfectly why the PLP has imploded so spectacularly Mike. a teams strength comes from the fact that all players are all aiming for the same ends, thus ensuring that the slowest does not dictate the pace of the whole team. If you and your ilk are only prepared to come on board when the team has won…………the team does not need you. IMHO it is entirely possible we would have a proper socialist Labour govt now if only the PLP had got its act together behind JC when it was obvious he was the prefered leader.
The Tories know only too well, “divided well fall united we stand”
Think on
Desp
Wouldn’t it be lovely if Mandelson retired to some plutocrat’s yacht somewhere in the Med and we didn’t ever have to hear any of his musings again?
He can take Blair with him, or has TB raked in enough money for his own superyacht yet?
I don’t imagine the usual suspects such as Phillips, Woodcock and so forth will have the guts to back Corbyn now, but let’s hope for a period of silence from them at the very least. If at all possible.
The likes of Umunna and Cooper seem eager to wriggle their way back into the fold (Cooper for Shadow Home Secretary, perhaps?) so it would be helpful if most of the other Blairites swallowed their pride and realised that things have changed. What would the result have been this election had Corbyn’s toughest opponents not been in his own party?
I think it wise for Corbyn to bring a few in
I think it is a selected few though
In fairness, there have been some things badly wrong with JC’s labour party, particularly the anti-semitism in some quarters, so it would be silly to dismiss people just because they disagreed with the way things were heading.
It depends on the individual.
Chuka Umunna is intelligent & articulate &, IMO, it would be a real shame if JC didn’t invite him back into his cabinet.
By contrast, Steven Kinnock is neither ntelligent nor articulate &, IMO, it would be a real shame if JC acknowledged him again..
Judging by Chris Leslie’s interview on the R4 Today progamme this morning, (approx 7.50 am) the Blairites have learned absolutely nothing. Mealy mouthed backstabbing, just as before. Maybe he’s pitching for a column in the Daily Heil.
So quite clearly – they intend not to learn, because they know best whats good for us, no matter the evidence to the contrary.
In broad terms I think parties have to embrace a range of ideas
But I can’t see how Leslie and Labour mix now
And it is Lelie who has to go
What the Labour party and all it’s representatives need to embrace right now is that the vote yesterday was for a “courageous” and humane state and the return of our public assets.
It was a vote by the left behind and all those who work to improve the lives of the left behind.
It was a vote for a more inclusive and equitable society.
It was a vote for a positive agenda judged only on it’s merits.
Some would describe it as a radically left wing vote.
I would describe it as a vote for humanity and inclusiveness.
Today I feel some hope.
Today we seem to have pulled back from the apparent shift towards a quasi fascist state.
As you rightly say, the arguments against neo liberal economics are key as is a positive attitude towards the necessity of a well functioning state and the incredible advantages of paying tax.
I hope with all my heart that the Labour Party can for once positively embrace these ideas.
Dear Richard Murphy
I love what you say about people needing to know the real truth about basic economics. Would you mind, as a teacher of economics, preparing a simple guide for everyone in the UK? I ask becasue you understand it well, and have the capability to encapsulate it all in a few simple-to-understand statements, which could then be presented nicely, copied and made viral. I hope it would only take a few hundred words at most, maybe in three bite-sized boxes. Thank you.
I am pleaed that you owned your part in the massive, sustained and comprehensive attack on labour. This puts you in the powerful position of being qualified to tell all those MPs and journalists etc how damaging they were to JC’s level of success and what they must do to redeem themselves and get Labour’s majority up come the next election in ?October.
I fear it woukd take Morgan a few boxes
But I am working on the task
Richard, if you could do with someone to help with the “task”, I have read your books and I have a novel published, so I have a few relevant skills, be happy to step up to the plate. Not interested in accolades, be a privilege to contribute.
Bob
Thanks
Am working on outlines now for a publisher, but let’s see
Richard
Can I put in a plug for progressive pulse,
http://www.progressivepulse.org/
We have made a start on trying to explain some economic concepts e.g.
http://www.progressivepulse.org/economics/basic-econimics/the-government-spend-and-tax-circuit/
and will be adding a lot more. A think the more voices that contribute to this the better.
Agreed
And thanks Charles
I think a simple guide to how the economy works sounds great.
As to the other points…
I doubt the average voter is overly concerned by abstract, even if well-intentioned, arguments about “socialism” and “capitalism” and “neoliberalism”.
When it comes to voting, for example, I am primarily interested in issues, policies and arguments that concern or directly affect my everyday existence.
Will I be taxed more (and thus financially worse off), will my kid get into a good school, will my employer try to reduce my pay if I take a day off sick, will my car insurance go up, or mortgage repayments?
Mundane essentials.
These take precedence because I have little choice but to deal with them and because I can control them to varying degrees.
I don’t have control over “capitalism” even if I have an interest in mitigating its worst effects. And as an abstract concept, it doesn’t affect me on a daily basis in the same way the mundane essentials do. One I have to deal with, the other I can ignore (until it’s too late).
This is the dilemma Labour has to help me solve if it wants my vote.
Help me balance the need to look after my own family and the mundane essentials against society’s needs. I recognise I am part of a larger community, but “society” doesn’t put bread in my kid’s mouth or a roof over my head.
How can I vote for Labour if it will make me or my family worse off, even if it makes society, of which we are all a part, better off?
Paint me a picture whereby my family and I become better off by voting Labour.
It’s also not unreasonable for me as a voter to ask a politician how they’re going to pay for public services. That’s holding them to account.
It may not be the most intellectual of questions but it needs answering because why would I trust Labour with the purse strings otherwise? Hence why I couldn’t vote Conservative. No costings? Are you having a laugh?
To answer that question, Labour needs to use a simple but better everyday analogy. Not abstract or intellectual arguments about neoliberalism.
“Your spend is someone else’s income” is a great start.
It beats “tax and spend” any day.
What I think Labour also needs to do is to get better at selling the Promised Land. In other words, don’t sell the car, sell the benefit of having the car and the destination i.e. the freedom to travel and the beauty of the place it can take us.
Corbyn was very inspiring when he spoke about wanting to create and live in a fairer society and that it was worth paying for because it lifted the argument above the nitty gritty of pounds and pence which is easy to get caught out on if your costings have been rubbished by the IFS.
Where is the Promised Land, how will Labour get me there and what will it cost to get there?
If you paint a desirable enough picture, people will pay for it.
Lee
Very interesting.
Now tell us why the Tory arguments might work so well with the voter?
The Tories have also been ‘painting pictures’ (lies?) which have not led to any of these desired outcomes. Through their deliberate policies they have hurt people. ‘Hard working people’.
This points to a rather limited grasp of what is going on by yourself. What about the BREXIT effect? The hate targeted at Corbyn? The Murdoch press? Any advice on how to deal with them. Oh go on – do!
‘I don’t have control over capitalism’. Really? But people could. Through politicians – the right ones. Through a State that accepted it had to do more to control capitalism because of – well – remember 2008?
You do realise that ‘tax and spend’ is wrong don’t you? Its ‘spend and tax’. So it does need to be explained unlike you suggest. And much better than you I would say.
BTW – sorry about the sardonic tone but when you call Labour objectives ‘The Promised Land’ – what are you really saying? And do you take Labour seriously or are you really one of those Tories who thinks that all money is private and just ‘appears’ from nowhere?
May I also say that portraying people as not being interested and also just wanting to know ‘what is in it just for them’ is not the way to educate a society. Not at all. All you get is Tory swing voters – isn’t it Lee?
And we’ve had it up to here with them. As this election result would tell anyone. Well….anyone who wasn’t Tory at least.
Thanks for replying.
I don’t know why people vote Tory. I guess they identify with the Tory offer in the same way Labour voters identify with Labour’s offer, or perhaps they’re voting tactically or voting for what they perceive as the least worst option. Who can say for sure.
I can’t have control over the concept of capitalism because it’s an evolving concept which many people contribute towards and as such there is no single owner.
I can however try to control how that concept manifests in society by discussing it and voting for or against capitalist people, parties and policies.
I guess in a broad sense you could suggest that capitalism caused 2008. I’m seeing the fractional reserve banking system and the banks’ government-sanctioned ability to create so much money seemingly in an unrestrained and self-interested fashion as the more immediate problem to address.
I’m not sure we could have capitalism without FRB, but I’m fairly sure we don’t have to allow private banks to create so much of our money.
Yes, I understand tax and spend may not be how governments fund public investment. They can create or borrow money in order to invest first. Tax is levied to control inflation and maybe for other reasons.
If Labour is to defend itself against accusations of “tax and spend” then yes, it will need to offer a more accurate explanation as to how public investments are funded. To set the record straight as it were.
Even if Labour retorts with, “actually it’s spend and tax” it may then have to face accusations of DoubleSpeak, spin and help the public understand how its policies are funded.
Voters and the media seem to want to know where the money will come from to fund public investment, regardless of whether you, I or anyone else thinks it’s necessary. So perhaps this is a good opportunity to retort with “spend and tax” and kick start a conversation about how money is created and spent in society and the role tax plays.
The “Promised Land” is a euphemism for Labour’s vision. Nothing more. Corbyn wants to create a fairer and more equitable society. That’s the Promised Land.
When I read a manifesto, I want to know what’s in it for me, my family, my friends, my community, my employer and the planet. I think other people do too.
I do think people are interested in concepts like socialism and capitalism. But when it comes to the wording in a manifesto, I care less about seeing the word “socialist” or “capitalist” and care more about understanding precisely how the policies will affect me and everyone else I mentioned above. I appreciate other people may care in the reverse.
As for the sardonic tone, it doesn’t really make me receptive to your ideas. I prefer to listen to people who are more constructive in their approach. Which is one reason I didn’t vote for May. Belittling and mocking another human being isn’t attractive to me.
Lee
Some points:
May didn’t belittle people or mock them. She just ignored them. And describing Labours very reasonable and costed spending plans ‘The Promised Land’ is more than a little mocking is it not even though you tell us you do not find such devices attractive?
Yes you can control capitalism by demanding and voting for your politicians to regulate it properly. It has been regulated once and it can be again.
Capitalism – never mind saying that ‘you can see it as blah, blah’ – the fact remains that the financial sector dominates capitalism too much. Making things is just as good if not better (manufacturing).
FRB – banking is a service as Lagarde said that is there to help others instead of it helping themselves as it has been doing. All we need to do is make helping others happen. If they don’t then a National Investment Bank is the answer.
Why do we need to defend spend and tax? We need to EXPLAIN it. How can a fact be double speak?
I am reassured that you think more than just about yourself when reading a manifesto. Keep up the good work.
Lee.
I don’t think many right-wing politicians would call themeslves “capitalists”. As I understand it, & I have never studied & kno very little about politics, Marx identified “capitalists” as those whose ownership of money & assets allowed them to oppress others.
Right-wingers would say they were free-marketeers. I’m zorry if I seem to be bleating on but it is important to understand that
OTOH: there is not &, has never been,, a society without any free market. Stalin & Mao bot tried to eradicate it & both failed.
OTOH, until the late 19th century no-one in their right mind would’ve thought that leaving things up to market forces would be a good idea. Even now, the USA isn;t completely free-market. They have, e.g., free education albeit at a pretty rudimentary level & a v low level of social security.
To an extent the only countries with a completely free market are those like South Sudan where the state has simply ceased to function.
Again I’m sorry if this seems dull & frankly trite but your posts seem to posit Socialism & Capitalism as 2 polar opposites, Thats not how any economy works. Every economy is a market controlled, to a greater or lesser degree, by the state. The USA is at one end of the spectrum with the state doing very little to control the market. Cuba (say) would be at the other with only a small amount of ‘free’ economic activity. On that spectrum the UK has been, since 1979, tipping closer to the USA while the rest of Europe rests more in the middle.
I think what JC, & before him Ed Milliband, tried to do was tip us back towards Europe. My election slogan might simply have been “be more like Germany”.
You’ve quoted the ability of banks as well as Governments to make money so while you, quite rightly, decline to comment on why people vote Tory you must understand the enormous exasperation at people who vote Tory because they are convinced “Labour spent all the money” “There was no money left”.As well say that the biggest risk of the obesity crisis is that we’ll run out of Kilograms.
Finally, Sardonic & Sarcastic are v different attitudes
Chris Leslie on Today this morning, still the unreconstructed New Labour grudge bearer. I hope he doesn’t represent the rest of the Blairite rump. Umuna was much more emollient yesterday. Corbyn will still need to watch his back I’m afraid. It’s rather dispiriting in the face of Labour’s actual result.
Chris Leslie is dire. I could try to find a redeeming feature but polutcailly I am not sure that would be possible
Chris Leslie needs to sit down and read a few of your books. Until he has a better understanding of economics he should not be allowed on the radio.
Agreed
Everyone has one redeeming feature.
For all we kow he may be wonderful at (say) badminton, or playing the Kazoo.
He was beyond embarrassing on the radio. His lack of contrition exceeded only by his lack of comprehension.
Good grief, they won’t concede anything, they should all be bowing down and kissing Corbyn’s a*se, not that Corbyn would want that!
It is beyond doubt that the people who have supported Labour want, by and large a solid Left leaning agenda that will bring an end to the neo-liberal era, this is no beyond doubt.
people like, Leslie and Stephen Kinnock (whose dad rubbished Corbyn mercilessly) should adapt or piss-off to the Tory Party. They have benefited from this great historic event and can’t even acknowledge it-they are worse than May!
Eriugenus
You state “In fairness there has been things badly wrong with JC’s labour party, particularly the nti-semitism in some quarters”
I see no evidence of anti-semitism of any kind. I have seen a lot of slurs aimed at the left and given shrill amplification by the MSM, but I have seen no evidence. To take those sort of accusations seriously I would need names and NI numbers. Any form of racism should be condemed and this JC has done consistently thoughout his whole political life.
I wish to be associated with John Adams’ comments concerning anti-Semitism in the Labour party. And Nick Cohen can sod off as well. A problem that has been blown out of all proportion. Even if it was a problem. Which in all my time associated with the Labour party I have never come across.
Honestly I haven’t.
I went Green when I felt that Labour were copying the Tories too much.
Chuka Umunna – ‘intelligent & articulate’? ‘Articulate’? Certainly.
‘Intelligent’? Debateable. He is a snake in the grass. Not to be trusted in my view. And I would encourage him to join the Tories too along with Leslie and Kinnock.
And please – can someone kick Mr Liam ‘There is no money’ Byrne out of the party?
You know – it isn’t the people who need to be re-educated about economics – its our bloody politicians.
As someone of jewish background I have found NO substance to any of the accusations of anti-semitism aimed at Corbyn. The accusation of anti-semitism has also been refuted by two leading American scholars, Noramn Finkelstein and Jamie Wiener.
My 85 year-old mother told me that at her day -centre for elderly Jewish people in Manchester she was a lone voice as a Labour supporter, many in the community has swallowed the MSM ‘shtick’ ( thought I’d get a bit of Yiddish in there!) about anti-semitism and Labour.
I’d advise anyone to read the following on this issue:
http://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-stern-weiner-norman-finkelstein/american-jewish-scholar-behind-labour-s-antisemitism-scandal
and
http://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-stern-weiner/jeremy-corbyn-hasn-t-got-antisemitism-problem-his-opponents-do
Left-wing Labour has certainly been viewed as anti-semitic. I think JC lanced the boil by getting rid of Ken Livingstone, but some of the student organisations still seem to harbour views that you wouldn’t want in a decent party. & remember we are supposed to be the decent party, no “swamping” no “hordes” here.
Yes, he press was probably taking advantage but we, as Labour, shouldn’t give them anything to grub up. It would horrify me to think that less than 80 years on we’ve forgotten the holocaust.
and yes, I do think JC should invite Chukka Umunna back. He’s a bright lad & we need them, Anyone who saw Diane Abbot’s ‘ferret confronted with a fox’ TV interviews will know we’re not exactly overflowing with talent!
For anyone who hasn’t seen it, Leo Panitch (Research Professor of Political Science at York University, Winnipeg) gives a good overview and analysis of where the Labour Party now stands under Corbyn on Real News – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Allf1IMgM6Q.