As the Guardian notes this morning:
Britons will have to show photo ID to vote in future general elections, ministers are poised to confirm this week, as a means of tackling fraud which critics claim could deter poorer and ethnic minority voters from taking part in democracy.
And so the retreat from democracy continues. Millions have no reason to have photo ID in the UK. And there is no evidence of literally any significant voter fraud in UK elections. But keeping those without photo ID from voting matters more. And so the Tories plan a wholly unnecessary electoral reform when what is really required is PR - from which they will also be moving away in mayoral elections.
You could not make this up.
But it is happening.
Fascism creeps on its way, as those pursuing these agendas desire. As a privileged elite they have always loathed the idea of a universal mandate. This is another way of restricting it.
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I am currently living outwith Scotland/UK and I have an ID acrd, as does everyone else. It is rarely used, but IS required for elections. It costs very little to buy – basically covering production costs – and lasts ten years. At elections you have to show the card AND get your hand doused in ink to prevent double voting.
My objection to ID Cards as proposed previously in the UK was 1. The excess cost required and 2. the link to a centralised database. (Here the cards are NOT linked to anything).
All that said, I do understand what the actual game is in the UK with introducing this requirement, which I think mirrors what is being done in the USA.
In many countries these must be carried
That will go down well with the few remaining Tory libertarians
Scotland cannot wait until it dawns on anyone in England what is happening, or people decide to do something about it, or can be persuaded to vote. This is 2021; what has happened to politics and political activity over the last fifty years to produce this debacle? We have returned to a placid acceptance of deprivation and poverty as a stain on our society.
What has happened is that Dominic Cummings was the only critic who figured out how to ‘play’ the public in England (from the defeat of devolution in the North East, when there was majority opinion in favour at the begining of his campaign, victory there and then the monumental triumph of ‘Vote Leave’); he discovered not only that he could persuade them to harm their own futures with impunity, but that nobody noticed what was happening, the opposition was weak and spineless, and few cared. Then he realised there was in England no end to the opportunities to ‘game’ the system.
See my comment on elections in England in an earlier thread for some evidence for the scale of the problem, and the dangers democracy faces in England.
It is also a long standing recommendation of the electoral commission. Which is cross party. Partly in a response to the widespread voter fraud in Tower Hamlets under Lufter Rahman.
So, there is no widespread problem then
I would have thought anyone who values free and fair elections without the taint of abuse would be in favour of improving the security of said elections.
After all, it was not just in Tower Hamlets there were issues. Momentum in 2019 for example were encouraging students to vote multiple times, at home and at their university location. There were plenty of tweets from members proudly showing off how many times they had voted.
Or is it just the case that you don’t like these changes because they may potentially adversely affect the left? If it was the Conservative party that engaged in electoral fraud I’m sure you’d be very keen for such a change.
Either way, the Labour party will need much more than complaining about voter Ids to ever regain power. The left is electorally dead, thanks to progressives like yourself who treat normal people with contempt.
You do know students are entitled to vote twice in some elections, don’t you?
Momentum encouraged legal voting
You are the anti-democrat
The left are democrats
@ Arthur
“The left is electorally dead, thanks to progressives like yourself who treat normal people with contempt.”
Thanks for revealing the logical bankruptcy of your argument with this humorous, yet false, dichotomy.
Have you not met any “normal” “progressives”? This says a lot more about you than anyone else…
Hi Arthur
I am really am impressed with your concerns about upholding democratic voting in this country.
As a fine upstanding member of the community, I wondered what are you thoughts were therefore on:
Bribing voters by making sure they get extra investment in their town/city leading up to an election?
Breaking limits on election expenses.
Not revealing were their funding comes from.
Lying – oh yes – lying – bare faced lying- on the sides of buses for example.
Using people’s on-line data without their permission to inform electioneering tactics and outcomes.
Selling off council houses in order to change voting patterns.
Initiating boundary changes for questionable reasons.
Any of this ring a bell at all? Well it should – they’re all Right wing tactics Arthur.
I agree with your views regarding the restrictive intent of the Tories and I agree that there is a need for PR but I also think the time has come for compulsory voting to be introduced.
The pro-UK Tories are already co-opting the silent 36% who did not vote in the Scottish National Election last week.
How will postal voters photo ID be verified?
When Brzezinski and Rockefeller set the 50 year agenda to bring the world to this point – it was clearly the high water mark of universal suffrage. Every action by their organisation and members has since been aimed at limiting ‘democracy’
‘ As a result of the activism of the ’60s and the militancy of labor, there was a falling rate of profit. That’s not acceptable. So we have to reverse the falling rate of profit, we have to undermine democratic participation, what comes? Neoliberalism, which has exactly those effects.’
@ DunGroanin,
The current changes don’t include postal votes. Marina Hyde writes in the Guardian:
‘ there are undoubtedly problems with fraudulent postal voting — and yet the Conservatives are, strangely, not doing anything about that one. Perhaps, like complicating in-person voting, postal voting is one of those things generally judged to “favour the Tories.” ‘
So the argument on fraud could be valid if only it was applied correctly. My wife and I applied for a postal vote when we were going away on holiday several years ago and we’ve been sent them ever since without asking for them. I know my wife votes differently to me and that is her right. However, women in controlling and abusive relationships wouldn’t have that ability. So It would seem that some tightening in this area would be well justified.
I noted the Guardian article also spoke of voters not understanding the London mayor voting slips – seemingly supporting removing PR from mayoral elections.
And yes, photo ID will disenfranchise voters – although Tories may want to be careful as they could nobble many of their latest supporters.
it isn’t an answer, but hopefully other parties can ramp up their postal votes.
But as to the thrust of your point – it is yet another step along the route to Fascism.
“critics claim could deter poorer and ethnic minority voters from taking part in democracy.”
Very racist to think that ethnic minorities are somehow less likely to have a photo ID than anyone else. Driver’s licences, passports, emergency services, armed forces, universities and other sources provide forms of acceptable photo ID. You need one to open a bank account, buy alcohol, sign on for benefits, access professional services and dozens of other reasons.
I am from an ethnic minority. Why should I be less likely to need or use these services than a white person? What are you trying to say about ethnic minorities? That we live some sort of second-class life on the margins of society? I have talked in my community about this. Every single person I know has some form of photo ID. We would appreciate it if you could stop patronising us.
The Guardian wrote that
The claim is supported by evidence
The fact in these groups do not tend to have photo ID
Nor do many elderly people
“The fact in these groups do not tend to have photo ID”
Is that a ‘fact’? ‘these groups’?!! Which ‘groups’ are you referring to? ‘tend not to’?! You think ethnic minorities ‘tend not to’ have driver’s licences or passports? How do you think many of us got to the UK? How do you think we visit our families abroad? How do you think we get around the UK? What sheltered club do you live in where you obviously meet so few people from ethnic minorities? Or why not ask every person you know from an ethnic minority whether they have some form of photo ID – that would be ‘evidence’. I think they would be bemused and shocked by your patronising assumptions.
What ‘evidence’ are you referring to? Provide a link that shows this.
This is just lazy stereotyping of ethnic groups. The Guardian has written it, you have repeated it. How many people have you spoken to from ethnic minorities who do NOT have some form of photo ID? Which ethnic minority ‘groups’ have you spoken to at all about this issue? I repeat, among my community that number is near zero.
There is so much casual lazy racism and stereotyping in what you write. We are not ‘these groups’. We do not ‘tend’ to do or not do things. We are individuals just as capable as anyone else
I am not going to do the good long for the evidence now, but the Electoral Reform Society has done this, and they are well respected
Stop hurling your faux outrage and instead note that not having photo ID is heavily correlated with low incomes and that is correlated (not perfectly of course) with minority ethics groups
Why be in denial of the truth?
What type of prejudice makes you ignore evidence?
Before anyone throws accusations of racism, can we see some actual facts please. What percentage of people, white and non-white, already have a driver’s licence or passport. Might any have any difficulty in securing either (perhaps because the Home Office refuses to renew their passport despite them living in the UK for many decades.) What are the percentages of each who might have photographic ID as a member of the emergency services, or armed forces, or workplace. (Frankly, I doubt my work pass would be accepted by many other people, but YMMV. And I can’t recall the last time I was asked for photographic identification: certainly not to buy alcohol for many years.)
There is very little evidence of voting fraud, apart from a few isolated cases, but the government are seeking for a sledgehammer to crack that nut. Why? It is legitimate to ask if there might be some ulterior purpose. Undoubtedly some people will be effectively disenfranchised by not having photographic ID, so again it is legitimate to ask if might there be some particular characteristics that such disenfranchised people share preferentially compared to the whole population. For example, I suspect they will include the old who’ve never needed photo ID, and probably people from other disadvantaged groups such as people from lower socioeconomic groups, and those without English as a first language. Perhaps we should ask a sociologist for a view, and then why the government might want to disenfranchise such people.
Agreed
Good evidence in the FT today
it is lazy stereotyping at best though many would determine it as racist. Any way photo ID is used across most of the EU and the States, haven’t you got more meaningful issues to “campaign” upon.. this is like old folk tittle tattle
Please excuse my cynicism, but would you mind taking your ideas on the virtues of voter suppression elsewhere?
Most have a travel concession pass….which has a holders photograph on it. The police accept these as ID.
Then there is a driving licence (over 45 million) (the majority photo licences)
A passport.
“CitizenCard” (held by over 2 million)
Look at the FT today
ID is massively biased towards Tory voters
And you can be sure access to this new ID requirement will be tough
Sledgehammer, nut. Anybody with any nous can see that voter fraud in the polling station is so close to zero as not worth this sort of response. Over the weekend there was one report of somebody trying to vote in a polling station and finding their name had already been crossed off. Out of 40 million voters. They just got given a special ballot paper that, and if the result was close all the ballots would be searched for the wrong one and the special ballot would replace it. And even then it could have been human error with the polling staff crossing the wrong name out. (I had a happy day doing polling station duty, it’s in the training manual)
The easy avenue for voting fraud is any sort of absentee voting, where many votes can be gathered in one place and controlled.
What I don’t understand though is why does The Government increasingly demand we show ID but not set up a Population Register & National ID card system?
Oh & when Mayor of London, I must credit Johnson with calling for an amnesty for illegal immigrants so if that the way he is thinking it should be possible as part of the ID Card/Population Register roll out to include some sort of amnesty and no questions inclusion for The Windrush Generation.
Labour tried to introduce a National ID card and received enormous flak. The police & press accused Labour of being too authoritarian. “Jackboot” Jacqui Smith. The scheme was scrapped in 2010 by the coalition government. Politics, eh?
The Blair scheme was a product of his ego hence deeply flawed.
My suggestion might be that the card would only be required for specific purposes, eg to prove your right to work, or rent/buy property.
I would also suggest that because of issues over the availability of historical records I would probably exclude anyone born before a particular date, I suggest 1960
If the tories are worried about electoral fraud they’d be better off looking at themselves, as we saw with the Thanet election, where they’d bussed in a set of activists, but not included them in expenses.
This move is economic gerrymandering, and they know it.
…of course they know it….the ConSelfServative Party is the natural party of the gerrymanderer.
You’ll note that there is no intention to make voting compulsory though…
Canada, France, Finland, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and many states of the US, all require photo ID to vote.
This is not an uncommon requirement in Western democracies.
So?
We don’t
Nor do we have any pattern of photo ID
Many such countries do
Your excuse for reducing access to voting is lame, and I am certain you know it
Having recently moved house I am required by HMRC and the Department for Work and Pensions to provide them with my new address.
I went online, and was greeted by security to establish it was the real me and not some fraud. In neither case did they want my NI number. They did ask me to choose 2 from 3 items they could ask me about. 1: A valid UK passport. 2: A Northern Ireland driving licence. 3: Credit reference questions.
My passport expired in 2019 and I have had no occasion to renew it. I have never had a NI driving licence as I have never lived there. After several attempts, they just kept repeating these three items so I decided to telephone them. The robot voice on the phone refused to accept my postal code, so I waited for almost an hour before an operator spoke to me.
All this is simply intended to marginalise those who do not fit society’s stereotype
I moved house.
I notified DWP.
I notified The Pension Service.
I notified DVLA (licence/vehicle registration).
DVLA sorted.
Pension sorted.
DWP has *still* not got it right, and two years have passed. Last year the current inhabitant of my old place has had her winter heating allowance reduced to £100 because they think two people live there !!!!
The phrase that puts terror into peoples lives: “we’re from the government, we’re here to help you”
Agreed.
It’s all trap door stuff isn’t – deliberately done to disenfranchise citizens.
The Opposition parties need to be pro-active about ensuring people are signed up – opposition can help here and offer a service aimed at ensuring that people are registered – I think that the Democrats in the US got to be very good about this.
I can sense anger growing about this already.
It’s funny isn’t it? Trump has been thwarted in the U.S.
But not here.
To cut it down to basics, unless photo ID cards are given out for free, a citizen has to pay in order to vote.
Yes
“unless photo ID cards are given out for free, a citizen has to pay in order to vote.”
The government’s plan explicitly states:
“any voter who does not have an approved form of ID [i.e. a passport, driving licence, etc.] will be able to apply, free of charge, for a local electoral identity document.”
So, the person has to have electronic access
How much does that cost?
Hi Richard, unbelievable how many comments you get here, maybe would be better to respond to YouTube comments so it is easier for all to see and less chance people duplicate the same questions?! Hope you’re well
Would be interested to see some livestreams on YouTube where you interview economists or tax experts etc
I do not have time to deal with YouTube comments
Sorry
The UK has to date been remarkable free of gerrymandering, compare to the US for example, but I’ve recently been reminded that a boundary review is under way, the previous two (which would have reduced the number of MPs to 600) having been abandoned.
It will report in July 2023, which may be before the next general election – it would be in May 2024 under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act. but the next election could be as late as December 2024 if the fixed term is abolished but we keep the five year term limit – or the government may go to the polls earlier, for example if there is a vaccine bounce and the Conservatives think Labour are not ready.
If anyone needs proof that this government wants to restrict true democratic voting they need look no further that the anti-democratic FPTP system, now securely embedded by the sham electoral referendum in 2011. The likes of minister Nadeem Zahawi still claim that this faux choice of two non-PR systems shows that the electorate ‘prefers FPTP’. FPTP, remember, (sorry I keep saying this) would allow this government to win every seat in Parliament with as few as 20% of the the popular vote. Why are people desperate to give the government the benefit of the doubt whenever they impose a blatantly anti-democratic or morally repugnant policy?
Surely photo ID should be free of charge if it is compulsory to the most basic of rights
But what does free mean?
How much effort need be expected to do this?
Your objection has ground to a halt..
1) it is done in the majority of advanced countries already
2) the vast majority of people any way have photo ID already
3) those who don’t can obtain it for free
4) so disenfranchisement will be zero unless people cant be bothered to apply for free ID
at this point if people (who haven’t got some form of photo ID already) cant be bothered to apply for free ID then they simply cant be bothered to vote
Read what the Electoral Reform Society has to say
Look at the FT’s analysis – which reveals this to be gerrymandering
And then look at yourself as the anti-democrat you will very obviously are
A significant number of people don’t drive and don’t travel overseas, so don’t have a driving licence or a passport. Forcing individuals to pay for a special voter ID would disenfranchise a significant number of people who can’t or won’t pay for the privilege. Relying on any sort of identification that has to be paid for would in effect be the reintroduction of a property qualification.
As a reminder, each 1% of the adult population that is discouraged from voting is about 500,000 people. In a context where millions of people are already not registered to vote, and turnout in a general election has not exceeded 70% for almost a quarter of a century (since 1997).
Even if photo ID voting cards are issued for free, some people won’t jump through the bureaucratic hoops to get one. And there will have to be a whole regime of receiving applications, checking qualifications, issuing voter IDs, and checking them at the polling station. There may well be fake ID cards too.
The problems this causes are likely to be worse than any problems it solves.
Agreed
By a strange coincidence the Thales Group handles things like UK driving licences, security cards and data processing for the govt: https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/markets/digital-identity-and-security/technology/smart-cards-basics
‘Gerrymandering’ – yes indeed.
There are some people here ( Oh hi ‘Jennifer’ !) who are either naïve/gullible types or just trolls.
I don’t think there is any justification for doing this to the electorate at all. We know that ‘channel shift’ to digital access does cause problems and does exclude people.
This Government – as a proto-fascist one – is merely making up a problem in order to justify this course of action. It’s creating threats and enemies to throw people off the scent. It knows that changes to processes will catch people out. It’s banking on it I can tell you.
This country once had a lot going for it, and one of those things was most people are decent and will vote as the rules say they should.
Yet, we know that overseas money and rich-Brit cash has been pouring into the Tory party, and money does indeed buy you Tory Government policy – like BREXIT. We know that this Tory Government stifles debate even within its own party.
The only fraud of any kind going on ladies gentlemen (and that means you too ‘Jennifer’) in our politics is being perpetrated right now by the Tory party and this will continue as long as they remain in power.
I don’t think that you need to be Albert Einstein or a Left winger in order realise what is actually going on.
Honestly – some of you who turn up here need to get your heads out of your arses.